Butch? Or Sundance?

Butch? Or Sundance?

by Nancy Martin

The first movie that made me bawl BUCKETS of tears was not Bambi or Dumbo (because we lived in a small town too small for a movie theater, I didn't see those movies until I was way, way too cool to cry at stories)  but the movie Becket.

Becket stars Peter O'Toole as King Henry II of England and Richard Burton as his (at first) lusty drinking buddy Thomas Becket. These two happy-go-lucky ne'er-do-wells have some fun, romping adventures until Henry gets the idea that he can solve all his kingly problems with the Pope by appointing Thomas as the Archbishop of Canterbury. Things go awry when Thomas decides to give up good times for religion, and the two buddies become sworn enemies until Henry--in a drunken rage---hints that somebody ought to kill the "meddlesome priest," so some henchmen go murder Thomas, and that's the end. 

 

Yeah, okay, we could talk about all the big religious themes and meaty subject matter of statesmanship wrapped up in this story. To me, though, the story was the tragedy of two buddies--men who share some common qualities and reflect the best (strength?) and worst (ego?) back at each other-- who ended up at odds with each other, and that just broke my pre-teen heart.  I hid from my famiy in the bathroom and wept.

But, in retrospect, this is also the first movie where I became aware of the Kirk vs. Spock conundrum.

Ladies, if you needed a fictional boyfriend, would you choose Captain Kirk, the lusty, chatty, party boy, man of action? Or the cool, cerebral Mr. Spock who undoubtedly hides a complex heart and a prodigious sexual appetite beneath his quiet exterior? 

 

Let me put it another way. Butch or Sundance?

 

Or:

Mel Gibson or Danny Glover? Turner or Hooch?  How about some more current examples, Nancy?  Well, I must rely on the backbloggers for that. Suggestions?

In romance writing parlance, this question might come down to: Do you prefer thrusters? Or sliders?

Which character deserves love and self-actualization?

Here's a wonderful video by the AV Club that examines some characters who don't deserve love because they're just not fully-fleshed by the writer(s). (Those of you who adore Bridget Jones should brace yourselves) :

 

As NaNoWriMo winds down, all the writers who've been slugging coffee and banging out pages for a month now face the even greater challenge: The re-write.  How to shape 50,000 frantically typed words into an 80,000 word novel?

The question up for today's discussion is: Too shallow to be loved? Can you develop a thruster into a character with enough depth worthy of the reader's attention? Can you give a slider enough personality to make him remotely interesting beneath the strong and silent routine?  Can you make your reader bawl buckets the way Becket turned me into a quivering mess of emotion, hiding in the bathroom? How do you shape a caricature into a character with complex goals, and complex past, a hole-in-the-heart worthy of reader interest and---oh, yeah---all without resorting to a dump of backstory in the first 50 pages?

Or, if you prefer the pass/fail question: What the hell makes either of these archetypes so damn sexy??

 

 

Comments

[William]

(ahem!)

Ginger or Mary Ann?

Cagney or Lacey?

Rizzoli or Isles?

Nina or Wollie?

Helen or Charlie?

Kind of left some examples out here, Ms. Nancy!...:)

Not going to make my NaNo goal this year. A little less than the half-way mark, but it's not going to happen this time. HOWEVER.... I am very pleased with what I have, and have some notes (actual written down so I don't forget notes!) about what comes after. As soon as this Real Life Stuff settles down, I'll get back into it!

[Kathy Sweeney]

Honey, if this is fantasy time anyway, I'll take Butch AND Sundance.

[Judith Bandsma]

I think I'd rather a combination of all of them...including William's list.

[Kathy Sweeney]

But not at the same time. That's a young woman's game.

[Laura (in PA)]

There's always the Evanovich Ranger or Joe question, but I gave up on all of them after book 5. Then there's the Twilight Team Edward or Team Jacob, but since I've avoided everything Twilight like the plague, I can't weigh in on that one, other than Robert Pattinson is creepy looking.

In my young years, it was Starsky vs Hutch, or Bo vs Luke.

In real life, I've always like the strong silent types. The charming party boys were too flaky.

[Ramona]

King Arthur or Lancelot?

I think I'd have to go with Butch. You know he'd be more fun. Plus, we could go bike-riding.

I'd also go with Captain Wentworth over Mr. Darcy.

A literary example of how to write a shallow man who experiences leaps and bounds of character growth is ABOUT A BOY. His buddy is a young boy, but the man is the child and the child is the man, until the end when the man grows up and the child loosens up. The movie is good, too.

This is a little off topic, but you have me wondering: Are there any good contemporary YA books about male friendship? Beyond A SEPARATE PEACE and THE OUTSIDERS?

[Nancy Pickard]

You canNOT make me choose between Butch and Sundance.

Ashley or Rhett (hahahaha)
F. Scott or Ernest (Neither! I'm not crazy.)
Spike or Angel? (Spike!)
JFK or RFK
The two guys in The Hunger Games
And for the guys . .Jennifer or Angelina?

[Nancy Martin]

Oh, for crying out loud! That code thing is driving me crazy. I was completely brilliant half an hour ago, except for forgetting the damn code at the end.

Anyway:

We discussed female characters a couple of weeks ago (remember the Bechtel test?) so I thought we'd take up the men this week. No offense, dear William.

Lately, I have been conducting a writerly exercise: Watching soaps. Pick one, and listen. Soap characters actually *say* what they want. We novelist types often assume that subtext is on the page, but it's good to remember characters have to talk.

That said, I always thought Ranger worked best when he didn't talk.

[Nancy Martin]

Spike. Oh, Spike! He has that wonderfully huge hole in his heart, but I think he's so appealing because he's so damn vulnerable about it. He talks about it! And he's in pain about it! So we love him.

[Reine]

Well, I married Mr. Spock. He is everything, all of that, and more. Quiet hides the slow build to . . . .

[Sheila Connolly]

Oh, God, Becket. I adored that movie. Once, when I was visiting the cathedral in Sens (France), where Thomas Becket spent his exile, I saw an exhibit of Becket's clothes. It really hit me: the man was real, and that's the size he was (they had a pair of his shoes too). I nearly cried. But don't make me decide between Peter O'Toole and Richard Burton.

Spock, no question. And Ilya Kuriakin. And Butch. I often quote to myself the line "You just keeping thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at."

[Maryann Mercer]

Oh Ramona...Captain Wentworth....sigh!
But Darcy over Bingley of course :o) Watson over Holmes (cuz I like my men fallible), Spike definitely. Gibbs over DiNozzo, Sam over G Callan, Butch over Sundance (although like Kathy I think I want them both),and Brees over Rodgers. So many choices so little time :o) Work again. Enjoy the day...we avoided the snow and the sun is out!

[Reine]

Oh yeah . . . Ranger. Scout - Ranger. Scout - Ranger. Scout - Ranger. Get it?

[Nancy Martin]

Oh, Captain Wentworth! Now there's a man with a hole in his heart!

[Harley]

Ramona, Harry Potter has Ron Weasley, but that's not a really great example, because Harry is really a lone wolf at heart, I think.

Spike, Spock, Butch, Joe, King Henry, Mr. Darcy.

I blame this on NaNoWriMo having eaten my brain cells (less than 3000 words to go, and no, most of them aren't any good, but they're on the page) but can someone please enlighten me about thrusters and sliders? They sound like something on the menu at Johnny Rockets.

[Annette Dashofy]

Like Etta Place, I want to sleep with Sundance and ride bikes with Butch.

I'd write something more witty and cerebral, but I'm stuck on the fantasy of sleeping with Sundance...

[Nancy Pickard]

Harley, I didn't know you were doing NaNoWriMo!!! Have you done it before, too?

[Alan P.]

NaNoWriMo taught me that I do a lot of stuff in November. My 4,000 word count would testify to that. But there is a chapter towards next year.

One thing is that movie romantic comedies have such cookie cutter scenes/stories/characters it is more like changing faces on a doll than writing. It may be part of movie creation, but it is what it is. Brainy friend, fall over the dog, misunderstood hug leading to tossing the soul mate, the sad scene that is more music video than story. Insert face/abs/butt here.

Books seem to go the same way. The friend wrongly accused. The mean cop who has the wrong guy. The attorney more interested in winning than right. The trapped in a bad situation suspect. Insert name and nationality here.

It all comes down to good characters. Someone worth reading/watching. Someone who you want to find love or at least long term lust.

[class factotum]

How about the two main characters - the soldiers - in "Rome?" If you don't want to watch the show for the abundant penises (Lord have mercy, I had no idea...), then watch it for the two hunks.

PS I had never seen an HBO series before. I didn't know that they could show that much - action - on TV.

PPS I don't think I could be an actress, not if I had to do naked sex scenes.

[Alan P.]

Sorry, Mel Gibson or Danny Glover? Raving anti-Semite drunk or Mr. Anti Death Penalty, unless I am being paid to be a cop, then any suspect can be killed? Count me as a vote for Joe Pecci.

Kirk or Spock? Loosest dick in the quadrant or know 3,425,489 sexual positions and will try them with you?

Jennifer or Angelina? If I have to Jennifer but Jessica Alba would be better than either.

Watson/Holmes. This is a literary crowd so I will speak to them as written not any of the big screen versions. Gotta go with Holmes. I see Dr. Watson sitting by the fire waiting for you to bring in tea and soup. Neither not too hot or strong. Probably don't want to step out on Homes though, he'd know.

[Karen in Ohio]

Too damned many choices, if you ask me. I'm as greedy as the rest of youze, and could never choose between Butch and Sundance/Henry Gondorff and Johnny Hooker (The Sting, in case you didn't remember those names--neither did I). And that fight was great. I'd forgotten about it, so thanks for the clip, Nancy.

This is all broadening my perspective, between the Bechtel take on movie characters and The A.V. Club's. Bridget Jones so did not deserve the toothsome Colin Firth, but it never occurred to me that she didn't.

But I can't possibly make an intelligent comment about characters in books until I know the difference between a thruster and a slider. Wha, huh?

[Sandi]

Side note: One of my ancestors (William de Traci) was one of the henchmen who murdered Beckett. He later repented and built a church, then lived to some ridiculously old age for that time.

Butch all the way, baby. If a guy is all action and no talk, I'm just not interested. And Laura, Luke (over Bo) was one of my first crushes. You may remember... Frank or Joe (Hardy Boys)? Frank, of course.

Ramona, for YA fiction for boys, try Holes (young-ish, but strong on friendship). There's also the Tomorrow series by John Marsden (first book is Tomorrow When the War Began) that I found fantastic. It's written from a girl's perspective, but it's about a group of teenage boys and girls in Australia who fight back when their country is invaded. Think Red Dawn. Despite a girl "writing" it, it's engaging for both boys and girls. Also, you mentioned The Outsiders, but look at other books by S.E. Hinton (Tex, Rumble Fish, That Was Then, This is Now, and Taming the Star Runner). For a little older reader, look at Rob Thomas (writer of some of my favorite television ever, including Veronica Mars and the first go-round of Cupid). Rats Saw God, in particular, was very good.

[Laura (in PA)]

Sandi, I always liked Luke too. Though it seems I prefer the dark haired choice over blonde - I felt the same way about Starsky. My husband is dark, as well. :)

I totally understood the thruster vs slider thing. What does that say about me?

[Sandi]

Hmmm... just a thought - how many of these have been blond (thruster) vs. dark (slider)? Do we stereotype darker-haired men as being more cerebral? Ooh! I vote for Jean-Luc Picard!

[Nancy Martin]

Now, see, I could write a dissertation on thrusters vs. sliders (thank you for getting it, Laura!) but I wrote 40 romance novels, so maybe it's just part of my lexicon. I think it might be more useful to let the rest of you hash it out.

SAndi---talk about character growth! Or.....was your ancestor running for president?

[xena]

You all know I like the "bad" boys.
Whatever has happened to Rod BTW?
Toxic men. Gotta love 'em!

[Karen in Ohio]

Nancy, I would agree with us hashing it out, except even Harley doesn't get it. Clearly, there is some sort of secret code going on here.

Sulking. (just kidding)

Xena, Rod no longer visits here. Check his Facebook page.

[Ramona]

Sandi, thanks!

As soon as I posted, I thought of a few: Wrestling Sturbridge, The Body of Christopher Creed, After by Francine Prose and most of Robert Cormier's body of work. But none of these are new titles.

Now I'm waiting for when Karen in Ohio gets the thruster vs. slider thing, LOL.

[Laura (in PA)]

Karen, I believe it's a reference to men who, let's say, are in more of a hurry and more aggressive during intimate moments, versus those who take their time.

She says, delicately...

Much can be said in favor of both. :)

[Karen in Ohio]

Oh.

[DebbraSue]

Spock and Starsky -- can't choose between Newman and Redford no matter which movie, also would have a tough time with Ranger or Morelli. Patrick Stewart -- be still my heart. I saw him quite a few years ago in *Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf* with Mercedes Ruhl. Utterly fantastic.

The Chaos Walking Trilogy by Patrick Ness is a great YA set. I had the opportunity to hear and meet the author with my DD2 and it was very interesting to hear his take on the vampire/werewolf/shapeshifter books that were originally planned as a trilogy.

[Karen in Ohio]

I'd have zero trouble choosing between Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. Scotch over Irish, baby. And O'Toole always creeped me out.

Heck, if Stephanie can't choose between Ranger and Morelli, and she's been with them both, how could I ever choose? I mean, if they were real people. And if I actually had a chance in hell with either of them. LOL

[NancyM]

Or those who take what they want, vs. those who are more persuasive. Or those who get theirs first vs. giving before receiving. Or....well, there are lots of analogies. Hands up, class?

[Jill W.]

I have to disagree with Karen- I'd pick O'Toole in any role, any time. I lurve him, and I have since I was a kid.

Spock is an easy chocie over Kirk, and I say both to Butch and Sundance. How can you choose?

I often find the best friend more compelling that the hero, at least in certain stories. I love Harry Potter, but I would much rather hang out with Ron. And in LOTR, Frodo makes me tired. I always think Sam was the real hero of that story. Not that I am interested in any of them on an intimate level. Now, Ranger/Aragorn- that is a different story... *sigh*

[Karen in Ohio]

Jill, the idea of being intimate with a hobbit cracked me up!

You can have Peter O'Toole. See how gracious I am?

Nancy, thanks for the further explanation. I knew we could get you to say more! So, give me a slider any day.

[marie]

I am wondering who I would really want to be married to..Rhett or Ashley in Gone With the Wind.
On the one hand I would have a rogue in Rhett and on the other hand I would be able to rule Ashley very easily.
I began NaNOWriMO and discovered many craft books on writing including Elizabeth Berg and others.
My daughter wants to edit my manuscript and my DH thinks I can write. Well, that's the payoff for pursuing a dream.

[NancyM]

Example: Blond Bond vs. Sean. One 007 has a hole in his heart, the other doesn't. Both are probably thrusters. Mostly because the hole in Blond Bond's heart makes him angry. Spike isn't angry about his inner problem. He's worried and vulnerable. Is Spike a thruster or a slider, though? Hm....

[Linda Rodriguez]

Spock, Spike, Ranger, Darcy, Butch, sort of in a rut, I guess. But Burton-O'Toole? I'd have to go polyandrous there.

Great post, Nancy. Lots of fun!

[Nancy Pickard]

Nancy, I think we could find video proof that Spike is BOTH, bless him. Thruster--that first time when they brought down a building. Slider--uh, other times.

The word "thruster" isn't working for me because every time I see it I think "Thumper."

[Nancy Pickard]

As in "Bambi," of course.

[Nancy Martin]

Well, maybe we've just come up with a third archetype male character: The thruster, the slider and . . . the thumper?

[Barbara O'Neal]

I choose Capt Pickard over Spock or Kirk any time. That cerebral, depth...I"m just sure he has hidden vats of passion.

[Hank Phillippi Ryan]

Paul or John or George? (Ringo was never in the equation.)

ANd Ramona, I've pondered the very critical King Arthur or Lancelot question more often than I care to say. But I'm an Arthur girl, absolutely.

Butch or Sundance? Shrugging.

Cary Grant or Clark Gable? (Cary, right?)

Gregory Peck or Jimmy Stewart? (not even a moment's hesitation..)

[Mary Stella]

Hmmm -- Let's add a few more choices just for fun.

Barnabas vs Quentin?
Mickey, Davy, Peter or Mike?
Errol Flynn's Robin Hood or Kevin Costner's?
James West or Artemis Gordon (Original TV cast)

[Mary Stella]

Now that I believe I understand the thumper-slider references I have a whole extra comparison speculation.

Jenny Crusie also posed the infamous muffin or doughnut comparison but I think that had less to do with sex. Or maybe not, depending on the situation. :-)

[Lisa Alber]

Thrusters and sliders! I've never heard that parlance before and it had me laughing. Personally, I'm more of a slider girl, which means I dug Spock...Actually, when I was a kid I liked Dr. McCoy best. Yikes, what does THAT say about me?

No one's mentioned Luke and Han Solo!! When I was a kid I liked Han Solo, but now I like Luke, especially in the second movie when he's oh-so-tragic. Darth Vader, his father, oh poor Luke!

Oh, and Spike! He made that show for me.

For NaNo...I didn't make the 50K, but I've got a good start. Have to finish the first draft. Just keep chugging along. My male protagonist is a slider, but his personal misery is so vast that he acts out in self-destructive manners...I'm actually worried that my female protagonist doesn't have enough personality.

[Nancy Martin]

Lisa, honey, I'll join your club. But that's what re-writes are for, right?

[Nancy Martin]

BTW, here's a former bookseller (one of The Best!) who's now running a book review blog, and she's doing a big book giveaway this month. Nancy sez, chek it out:

http://bitchcanwriteabook.blogspot.com/2011/11/twelve-days-of-authors-holiday-giveaway.html?spref=fb

[Karen in Ohio]

Nancy sex? The mind boggles.

Hank, the most intriguing Arthurian character, to me, is most definitely Merlin. Aging backwards, long before Benjamin Button!

Han Solo was definitely a thruster. Most def.

[Ramona]

Thumper does not belong in this conversation. Please trust me on this.

Bond never did a thing for me until he became Blond. Everyone else, meh.

But Sean Connery, Sam Neill and a young Alec Baldwin in The Hunt for Red October? Hubba, hubba, and hubba.

[Karen in Ohio]

Oho, how'd you fix that so fast? LOL

[Reine]

Nancys. P & M, ". . . the Thumper!" Heh.

[Ramona]

Where did my comment go?

Please stop referring to Thumper. Thumper does not belong in this conversation. [wink wink at the one who will get this]

Spike was a thruster. Angel was a slider. Riley was...a loser.

Bond never did a thing for me until he went Blond. But Sean Connery, Sam Neill, and a young Alec Baldwin in The Hunt for Red October? Hubba, hubba, and hubba.

Hank, not even Franco Nero's Lancelot?

[Nancy Martin]

I think The Code thing is toying with all of you.

Yeah, okay, Thumper is off limits.

[Storyteller Mary]

I always did like Spock -- I'm sure he had a fun side (and I am way overdue for Pon farr ;-)
Xena, Rod is writing -- The Gathering Darkness is on Kindle and soon to come on other readers, including the traditional ink-on-paper version . . . I don't know if you can access FB pages, but if you can
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Fourth-Awakening/94034703279

[William]

Okay, I wasn't going to do this. But, I feel I have to:

EMMA PEEL or...... uh.....um......ah......hmmmmmmmmm.....

[Rod Pennington]

Xena: I am alive and well but I abandoned TLC when I felt I had worn out my welcome. With 2 new novels releases this year and two more scheduled for next year, I've barely have time to shower and shave much less maintain my "bad boy" image.

Thanks for asking.

[Storyteller Mary]

Not shaving might enhance the bad boy thing . . . just saying'

Bonanza -- when it was new I like Little Joe, then when reruns became popular, Adam (ah, dreams of reading poetry on a hillside), then much later, I thought "If Ben could just get those boys out on their own . .. " Don't know why I didn't give Hoss consideration; he was probably the sweetest of the bunch.

[Reine]

Hi Rod.

[marie]

Welcome back, Rod.

[gaylin in Vancouver]

Spike
Ranger
Han Solo
Blond Bond

Nathan Filion - as The Preacher in Buffy, the Captain in Firefly or as Richard Castle?? I vote for Mal Reynolds, his character in Firefly.

For the guys, Milla Jovovich in Fifth Element or in the Resident Evil Series?

[Sandi]

Ooh, I'll check back in for Nathan Fillion! Always and forever, Malcolm Reynolds. And Mary Stella - Mickey. Mike too weird, Peter too childlike, Davy too slick. Mickey. Definitely. (Gotta go play some CDs now...)

[Reine]

There is a blonde Bond?

[Karen in Ohio]

Daniel Craig, Reine.