A Piece of Paper

A Piece of Paper

                                      

by Michele

What did you really learn in college?  Does it matter to you today?  I was raised by one high school graduate and one high school dropout who later got his GED and college degree courtesy of the U.S. military, and I'm as proud as I can be of that.  The point being, you'd better believe my parents wanted me to go to college, and they scrimped and sacrificed so I could.  Was it worth it?  Not just in my case, but in general?  What does that piece of paper get you?

This question becomes more and more pressing as tuition skyrockets and college slips out of reach for a lot of people.  And yeah, a few Ivies with billion-dollar endowments are waiving tuition for the needy.  Tried getting into one of them lately?  My alma mater is one of them.  Would they accept my application if I were applying today?  Hard to imagine. (And not if they read this blog, they won't.)

I learned a lot in college and not all of it was pleasant.  I learned that a lot of people are really rich and they get sent to the cool dorms and go into Boston for sushi whenever they feel like it.  I learned that some of my roommates who grew up in truly horrrendous circumstances will come into this environment and have nervous breakdowns and become suicidal, and for that they will get largely ignored.  (Except they do get their own room -- known as the "psycho single").  I learned that classes are taught by grad students who don't know my name, and that if I want the attention of a full professor I always have the option of sleeping with him.  I learned that years later, if I sit next to a distinguished professor from my alma mater at a panel discussion, tell him I took his course years ago and confess I found my undergraduate experience less than satisfying, he'll say, "Yeah, it's a sink-or-swim kind of place."

I also learned an enormous amount about Western political philosophy, literature of the 19th and 20th centuries in English and Spanish, and European and Latin American history.  I still remember a lot of it, and because of that, I feel like an educated person.  Does it make me better at my job than anybody else?  Probably not.  A better person?  Of course not, probably the opposite.  But it does mean never having to say I'm sorry.

And more than anything else, I learned that the right name on a piece of paper opens doors.  I learned I can impress people just by dropping it, and that if I'm feeling small or insecure, I can whip that proverbial piece of paper out and beat people about the head with it and they will comply with my wishes.  You don't have to take my word for it.  The Wall Street Journal will tell you -- these schools get you a huge edge, and I'm talking dollars and cents here. 

If you don't base your society on inherited weath, I guess you have to have some means of singling people out.  Could be worse, I suppose.

Comments

[Josh]

This matters with our son starting 12th grade next month. So long as he decides that where his girlfriend goes shouldn't affect him, we are on the right path.

Not exactly my wife's experience in New Haven, but when she went people had to at least act as if they cared, before Reagan made selfishness and bigotry popular and accepted again. However, my wife does agree that the name on the diploma makes a big difference. It's hard to convince kids of that, though.

Did we ever resolve what school is on your diploma? Is it Radcliffe College of Harvard University or Harvard College of Harvard University? To most people, it's just the second part that matters. To others, the first part makes a difference, too.

[Nic]

College is fabulous as an intermediate step between the dependence of childhood and the independence of adulthood. It teaches you all kinds of things about RL, esp if you go at least 500 miles away from your family.

It is also good as a self esteem booster later in life because you know what those smart people quoting stuff are talking about. AND it lets you sound really good in serious discussions.

My first piece of paper (from a private school on the opposite side of the country from yours) got me an hourly wage in a very very miserable job that taught me a lot. My second one (from the lowest tuition state school I could find because I was paying for it myself) got me the job I actually wanted and the name of the school on that one mattered not all. The Certified by the State of... to... is what really counted.

[Mrs. Josh]

Michele, how sad for you. My experience in New Haven was completely different. But then, we always patted ourselves on the back that we weren't at that school just north of Boston. :-)

I agree with Nic: "College is fabulous as an intermediate step between the dependence of childhood and the independence of adulthood." College is so much more than just absorbing the material they throw at you in class. I learned just as much from my classmates as I did from my professors. I used to sit in the dining hall for ages, just talking to my fellow students about what they were studying, where they were from, politics, family, you name it. And this is why I think it matters where you go to school.

I had friends from all over the planet. My breakfast buddies were from Thailand, Baghdad, Kuwait, New Jersey, North Carolina, Texas, and Georgia. (I was from Ohio.) My best friends were from Arizona, St. Louis, Maine, and India. They were brilliant and fascinating, and they exposed me to the world. Sure, there were tables made up of students with names like Taft, Bush, and Sterling (of Sterling Library etc. fame), but they and their sense of entitlement were easily ignored.

I teach at a third-rate university. I love my students, but I'll be honest. The top ones could be at any institution in the country, but the bottom of the class . . . . While all the students are getting a first-rate exposure to the law from the faculty, the top students are not getting the more high-powered experience they could be getting at a better institution -- because they do not have the depth of classmates to kick it up a notch. Even worse, the bottom students usually bring an anti-intellectualism that actually stifles learning. In short, students who show a real interest in their studies are often mocked into silence.

So, if one is looking at college as just a way to get a bachelor's degree to open up more career paths, then it may not matter where one goes. (Although I would absolutely NOT have my job if I hadn't gone to "name brand" schools.) But if one looks at college as a crucial component in determining who one is as an adult, it matters a lot.

Sorry to be so long-winded on my first post! But Josh said I should come here to share my thoughts, and I guess I had a fair amount of them.

[Nancy Martin]

It's hard for a 17-yr-old to know what s/he wants to do for the rest of a long, long life, and what percentage of kids changes majors at least once in college? For those reasons and what Michele says here, I'm in favor of sending your kid to the most prestigious college you can almost afford. (What are you saving your dough for? That 2nd home in the Caribbean?) If you can start your kid further along on the fast track, why not?

Still having a good time in Italy, Michele? Give us the highlights!

[Nancy Martin]

Good heavens!! We finally meet Mrs. Josh!!!! And she agrees with me!! Welcome!

[Kathy Sweeney]

Hi Mrs. Josh! So glad to see you here!

I am wading through last week's blogs (a week without Internet can actually be relaxing) and piles of e-mails.

Interesting blog - I got into the Big Name Law School but took the full scholarship at a local law school. Would my life have turned out differently? Absolutely. Regrets? Nope.

The thing that surprises me about some colleges is that, even without the Ivy, there are places with networks that are unbelievably beneficial - my brother in law went to the University of Richmond (Go Spiders!) and he has great contacts all over the country.

My brother went to Bucknell (a small place in PA near Penn State) and his Alumni network is vast and very well connected. So it's not just the name. It's the people.

[Kerry]

This is kind of a hot-button issue for me. Because I and my classmates graduated from a brand-new high school with only temporary accreditation, the top students in my class were denied entry into top private schools around the country. Me, I went to a large public university recognized as one of the best in the country. The intimidation level was extremely high and, while I was successful academically, I did not dream large dreams there.

For a variety of reasons, I wound up transfering to the smallest and youngest of my state's public colleges for the last half of my undergraduate career. I was shocked initially at the paucity of resources and tiny size of everything -- library, classrooms, labs, etc. And then I was shocked at the access I had to actual professors and to a diversity of experiences I never would have had at that big name school. I sang in the "good" choir, edited the school paper, was marginally involved in student governance, and learned to be a theatre set and light technician. All while garnering an education in my major that allowed me to dream big, get into a top graduate program in my field, and succeed quite well there.

My first job out of grad school was teaching at a small historically black college the majority of whose students were first-generation college attendees. This school was even smaller than the one I graduated from and with even fewer resources. A gratifying number of my students went on to graduate work and medical school and have established successful careers.

I agree that Ivy League and other top schools present networking opportunities and name recognition that can help the ambitious and talented student go very far. But I reject with all my heart the notion that expensive colleges are always a worthwhile investment. The quality of an undergraduate education is shaped by the effort of the student to a degree often underappreciated. And students who don't understand how to capitalize on the resources of top schools may find themselves less successful than those who make the most of the opportunities presented by the "third-rate" institutions they can afford.

So . . . that rant off my chest, my advice for parents is this. First, don't send a kid to college who isn't ready for it -- who doesn't know why they're going and isn't prepared to make the most of the opportunity. Let those kids work for a while and figure out what it is they really want. College isn't for everyone, especially not right out of high school.

Second, pick the college that is most appropriate for the kid. Some students thrive in the atmosphere of a large institution; some will only blossom at a small school. Some can take the pressure of a top-tier academic school. Others, equally bright, will do best in a more relaxed atmosphere.

Finally, be realistic about your expectations. A college degree, as I'm sure most of us know, is no guarantee of a job, much less one that will allow your student to live independently. Unless, of course, you're one of the lucky ones whose kid wants to be an engineer :) Keep the spare room ready . . .

[Karen in Ohio]

Good blog, and I especially enjoyed your take, Kerry. My perspective is different from those expressed so far. I only went to college for a year and a half, then got married, had a kid, and never really went back. However, I've taken college-level courses, and have been an avid student of various subjects in the intervening almost 40 years since high school. Maybe I would have done different things, career-wise, if I'd had a degree, but certainly not with my original major. As an entrepreneur, though, my education or lack thereof has never been an issue. I've considered going back to get a "life experience credit" degree, but found that I would have to pay the equivalent tuition, even if I tested out of the classes, which I thought was ridiculous so I abandoned that plan.

My husband also has his own business, inherited from his father, and his Ivy League degree made no difference whatsoever, except, as he says, to his level of self-confidence. It's a matter of great pride that he can say he graduated from there, but his degree has little or nothing to do with his actual work. And despite going to such a prestigious school, he can not say he had friends from all over the globe. Maybe it's because he graduated in 1971, and there were not as many foreign students then as there are today.

My oldest daughter went to college for three years, floundering around and trying to figure out which major she wanted to pursue, finally dropping out for seven or eight years. She finally got a degree in nursing (her first love) from a state school, and now teaches nursing herself. In her field the degree that matters is the postgraduate degree, not the undergrad as much. And we're finding that to be true for our youngest, as well, who wants to go into research. The middle one has a different career path in mind, and her alma mater will make a big difference, both to employers and to her eventual postgrad choice.

These days, so many kids start college only because their parents pushed them to go, and getting to a top school is a waste of money for them. Besides, I think we have a perfect example of this particular kind of waste sitting in the White House. (Did I say that?)

[Harley]

Mrs. Josh! We love hearing from you!

I never hung around for the diploma, which would have added a year of academics to my professional training program at NYU School of the Arts, and I never regretted it. No degree, just a certificate saying I completed the acting program -- a remarkable 3-year adventure that I went into debt for and never regretted.

This week, one of my acting mentor/teachers, the founder of the Graduate Acting Program died. His name was Peter Kass and he was a giant and students of his everywhere are in mourning. I'd give anything to have seen him one more time.

[Maryann Mercer]

Neither of my parents had a high school diploma. As the oldest kids, they went off to work so the others could go to school. Did it hurt either of them? Not so you could tell. When it came time to send me off to college, we chose a small state university that was affordable with the help of a scholarship. It was great...enclosed campus, excellent instructors, and kids who came to learn, at least the ones I knew. We had fun too. Of course this was back in the Stone Age of Education, when teachers actually taught freshman and sophomores and there were curfews and non-coed dorms.
When it came time for Catherine to go to college, we also chose another state university...this time for its design program. No scholarship, just a second job for me and on campus employment for her...which led to her change of major and transfer up to the U of I, where she graduated after just an additional semester ( meaning 4 1/2 years including internship)with a degree in Community Health. The paper got her her first job, her excellent work ethic got her the second. Did the paper mean something? For me no. I ended up in banking, not education. For her, yes as an entry to the professional world but not as the be all and end all.
In my current job (bookseller, no degree required), I work with lots of kids in this college town who go to the local community college as a stepping stone to a state university. For them, the expense of Ivy League is not an option. They're smart kids, and we have great state schools. Letr's hope the lack of a prestigious name on that diploma doesn't relegate them to the second team when it comes to careers. Sometimes NOT having that Harvard or Yale or Vassar on your resume means you are willing to work harder to prove yourself.

[Karen in Ohio]

I'd like to also point out that Warren Buffett has an undergrad degree from the University of Nebraska. It does not appear to have harmed in the least little bit to go to a state school.

[Laura (in PA)]

This pushes buttons for me, too, I guess. My parents had little money, and though I had the brains to make it on my own, I didn't have the ambition, so I went to a 2-year school after high school, and then went to work full time. I got my Bachelor's about 4 years ago, after attending a local college part-time while working full-time and taking care of home, husband and kid. The goal for me was the degree, not what it could get me.

My daughter is just starting her second year at one of the PA state colleges. She's never been a good student, nor an athlete, so getting into a better school wasn't in the cards for her. It's what we can afford, even after last Thursday, when my ex-husband, the day before tuition was due, finally returned our calls to say he wasn't paying the 40% he had grudgingly agreed to, because he doesn't feel she has enough regard for him or calls/visits him enough. So he wrote her off. But today, I got a big long email from her, raving about how much fun she's having during the training for her on-campus job, and how she loves everyone, and all the stuff they're doing together, and that in itself is worth the price of tuition to me. Even if my husband and I had to scramble at the last minute, have sacrifices we'll be making as a result, and have to pay the rest of it all ourselves.

Maybe I'm not ambitious enough for her, but I wanted college for her not for how far she could be financially successful in life, but because she needed that social interaction, exposure to other people and places, and downright fun to counteract her homebody personality. And the hope that she finds something along the way that will lead to a job where she is happy, and can support herself. The name of the school on her piece of paper, if, God willing, she gets it, won't impress many people. But I think the things she learns there outside of class will. I guess not every kid is born to take the world by the horns.

[Doc in CA]

I graduated high school mid-semester, then went straight to the local community college. I hated it. I wanted to be done with school for awhile before attempting college. Despite my folks wanting me to get that degree, they understood.

So I spent 4 months roaming around the country, then, in a show of poor judgment surpassed only by marrying my first wife, joined the Navy. I thought college sucked, but the military...hoo boy!

However, the good old GI Bill (this was back in the early-mid 70's) let me go back to school once I got out of the Navy and divested myself of the aforementioned wife.

This time, college was ok. Mostly because I majored in partying with a minor in taking only classes that interested me.

But I never graduated. I'm a self educator and the structure of college just did not fit me. I learn from experience, reading and, nowadays, all those great Discovery/Science/History cable channels.

As for the piece of paper opening doors, you bet it does. I've got a bunch of friends that got very nice jobs thanks to their expensive bits of paper. On the other hand, it helps to have majored in something useful.

Altho, my friend with a degree in Russian Literature from a well known West Coast university still got rich.

By being the Area Supervisor for a string of McDonalds.

[Tammee]

I can't speak for other "third rate" law school graduates, but I will speak for those who attended my program. Almost without exception, these were students who had sharp and analytical minds and who possessed a thirst for knowledge that was unsurpassed by those students attending more prestigious institutions. Moreover, these students usually worked harder than their ivy-covered contemporaries. I know this because I had dear friends at top law schools who were amazed at the work required to simply get though the program, with its skewed grading curve. Granted, my program was an accelerated two-year program, but I am certain that my knowledge of the law was not impeded by not attending a higher-tiered school (which I could have).

That being said, the unfortunate truth is as Michele and others have opined: The right paper opens minds, doors and coffers (in certain fields). My classmates have struggled to make the money necessary to pay off the exorbitant loans that most are burdened with. After four years, the majority are not even close to approaching the ridiculous salaries (140-160k) that the top ten law school grads are making out the gate. For this reason, going to law school is my only regret in life thus far. It is also the reason I tell potential attendees to make very sure that this is what they want to do, aside from the money, because money is not guaranteed simply because they earn a JD.

[michele]

Literally just walked in the door!

Mrs. Josh, wonderful to hear from you. I always suspected I should've gone to Yale. I knew on my visit that I'd be happier there, but I'd grown up in New Haven and gone to public school. Town/gown relations being what they were, it was a very complicated choice for me -- and ultimately I couldn't bring myself to do it. My two dear high school friends who chose it were very happy.

Very thoughtful responses from everybody who posted above. Thank you for the great level of participation. My kids are getting to an age where these questions are on the horizon. All I want is for them to be happy. Based on my own experiences, I think I'll end up viewing "happiness" as a prestigious BUT SMALL private college. Everybody's comments have given me great food for thought.

[Janis]

The thing I learned in college is that education has nothing to do with intelligence.

[William Simon]

Sorry to be late to the party, BUT...

I've known Ivy Leaguers with Daddy's Trust Fund and all the Proper Degrees from the Right Schools who shouldn't be allowed to cross the street by themselves.

Some of the smartest, bravest, strongest people I've ever known either got out of high school or barely did or never did.

It's the person, not the pedigree....

[Becky Hutchison]

I graduated from UT/Knoxville with a BA in Anthropology (in 1975) and had a lot of trouble getting a job. A friend of my older sister finally hired me as a loan clerk at a local bank. I couldn't be in the manager trainee program because my degree wasn't in business. HOWEVER, men were allowed to be in the manager trainee program even if they only had a high school diploma.

Ten years later, I received my masters in urban and regional planning from The George Washington University. This time the degree was from the business school, and I had several great job options. The important factor was I had a degree suitable for the planning field. Later when I decided to pursue other work, I was able to look for jobs outside the planning field because I had a business degree.

So in my case, it was the TYPE of degree I received, not the school I went to, that was important.

[Chris G]

Great blog,

As both a high-school teacher and a person who really found myself in college, I liked this blog a great deal. Those years are about finding yourself and understanding who you are. In college, I learned to have more confidence in myself, but I also made huge mistakes in my personal life. Those worked out. I learned that I was proud of what I knew and could do, but also what I didn't know and couldn't do. Learning some more about the latter category is what has driven me since then. I learned that there were so many more views of the world than what I had known before, that Langston Hughes wrote things that I only could wish I had thought of, that Toni Morrison's prose could approach poetry in its beauty. I learned what it was like to have a discussion group led by the foremost expert on Elizabethian history in the United States. I watched really good football teams stomp on my team (I went to Northwestern), which prepared me for life as a Pirate fan. I learned that I knew a great deal but had much more to learn, a concept that has driven my teaching. I learned the importance of family and friends. In short, I learned some things in the classroom, but much more outside of it. Parents and students who worry too much about the academic life while discounting the importance of interpersonal life worry me. College is one of the great times in life; you have to balance the desire and tendency to be truly irresponsible with the fact that your choices actualy resonate throughout your life. Oh, yes, I also learned that the main truism about college is once you get dropped off for your freshman year, that last thing you want to do is hang out with your parents. As a hint to any parents of kids about to enter college: check out the tourist opportunities around the school; you will be rather summarily dismissed. It's a part of the cycle of life.

[ArkansasCyndi]

SOOOO late to the party, but what a great blog and wonderful comments. It can make a difference where one gets their degree BUT it might matter more in some regions of the country than the others.

I'm not how to say what I'm trying to say (and since its so late, I'll probably get away with saying anything), but I think the schools "up north" are much more impressed with themselves than I have been when meeting some of their alums. I spent many many years in academia, have found myself as impressed with grads from the regional schools as I was with Harvard, Yale, etc etc. I think the price of college is getting way out of hand and luckily it's not going to be a problem for me. (no kids!) I don't think EVERYONE needs to go to college. Local area community colleges are perfect for some folks and for others, a technical school may be the answer. I think college as a transition between childhood and adulthood is a valid idea but it's just not for every student.

[Kalynne Pudner]

My perspective from inside the Liberal Arts Ivory Tower: I don't think the top-shelf name on an undergraduate diploma is worth it, unless you plan to apply for grad or professional school. The name on that grad or professional diploma, though, exercises a direct and demonstrable force on your marketability, earnings and prestige. The "worth it?" question came home to me in a new way last fall, when I realized that I was paying more for my son's freshman year at a private, second-shelf Midwestern university than I was making with a summa cum laude B.A. from that same university PLUS a top-shelf Ph.D.